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RUATAPU, a small town south of Hokitika.
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DescriptionRUATAPU: is a small town south of Hokitika.
The town's name stems from Ruatapu, a figure in Maori mythology. The town is located on a narrow strip of land between the Tasman Sea and Lake Mahinapua, a shallow lake that was originally a coastal lagoon.
The town's economy is based upon agriculture, as well as a large sawmill, operated by Westco Lagan, which mills Radiata Pine for further processing in Christchurch.
History;
On 9 November 1906, the Midland railway line, running from Greymouth to Hokitika, extended a branch line to Ruatapu. Ruatapu acted as the terminus of the railway until 1 April 1909, when it was opened to Ross, and became known as the Ross Branch. Passenger services ceased on 9 October 1972 and the line closed to all traffic on 24 November 1980. Some of the track bed near Ruatapu can now be driven. A large storm in October 1915 ripped the roof off the sawmill (at the time operated by Butler Bros.), demolished a hut, and shifted another house from its foundations.Map[1] ContributorHeather Newby
The town's name stems from Ruatapu, a figure in Maori mythology. The town is located on a narrow strip of land between the Tasman Sea and Lake Mahinapua, a shallow lake that was originally a coastal lagoon.
The town's economy is based upon agriculture, as well as a large sawmill, operated by Westco Lagan, which mills Radiata Pine for further processing in Christchurch.
History;
On 9 November 1906, the Midland railway line, running from Greymouth to Hokitika, extended a branch line to Ruatapu. Ruatapu acted as the terminus of the railway until 1 April 1909, when it was opened to Ross, and became known as the Ross Branch. Passenger services ceased on 9 October 1972 and the line closed to all traffic on 24 November 1980. Some of the track bed near Ruatapu can now be driven. A large storm in October 1915 ripped the roof off the sawmill (at the time operated by Butler Bros.), demolished a hut, and shifted another house from its foundations.Map[1] ContributorHeather Newby
Shown in this image
Location (city or town)RuatapuLake Mahinapua
Category Information
Category TagLake
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LinkFacebookDate Created2017-09-24CommentsBarbara Condon Oh the beauty of the West Coast!!
August 2, 2014 at 2:26pm · Like · 4
Gillian Pugh Gosh this page makes me homesick for the Coast!
August 2, 2014 at 3:16pm · Like · 2
Nana Pop Detlaff Photo shows Mirror Creek flowing into Sth end of Mahinapua; also the Nth end of the Totara Lagoon (begins at Ross). The Maori and pre-road pioneers used Mahinapua Cr, the lake, dragged their canoes etc over the rise to the lagoon,and made use of the waterways to get Nth & Sth. A fierce Maori v Maori battle occurred in this area. The name means twice sacred and is a reference apparently to the death of a chief - we believe??
August 2, 2014 at 5:06pm · Like · 4
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan two of our tupuna died there during the battle. One was Te Koeti Turanga's father from memory. Their heads were removed & carried back so the enemy (Ngati Wairangi) could not claim their mana. pretty sure I have that right.
August 2, 2014 at 6:16pm · Like · 2
Nana Pop Detlaff Ken that's what I believed to be the facts but was reluctant to write it in case it was fiction. Can't remember where my info came from but it"s ages ago! Heather
August 2, 2014 at 6:39pm · Like · 1
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan yeah we talked about it in the runanga when planning to build our marae at Bruce Bay. best person to ask is Paul M, editor at Greymouth Star he is our Chairman.
August 2, 2014 at 6:41pm · Like · 2
Glenn Johnston Heather I would question your translation of Ruatapu. Rua usually means pit or cave and tapu sacred or forbidden. My Maori is limited though my late father was fluent & interpreted in Maori Land Courts. A little rubbed off & if I heard that word without knowing the story behind it I would immediately think of burial cave, Would any local Poutini Kai Tahu care to comment on the story behind the naming of Ruatapu. Dusty perhaps the bodies from the battle you described were lodged in a cave there?
August 2, 2014 at 7:19pm · Like · 1
Glenn Johnston Nana Pop Detlaff I agree re the portaging from Lake Mahinapua to the Totara Lagoon but doubt your "twice scared" as a meaning for Ruatapu. I can see how that interpretation could be derived from an English perspective looking at rua and tapu as seperate words but in Maori phrasing it would be Tapurua not Ruatapu to approximate "twice sacred?". I'll stop at attempts to second guess the meaning because no one really knows unless they have the whole story regarding the naming. That is why I invited a local Maori privy to the oral history of the naming of Ruatapu to comment.
August 2, 2014 at 11:33pm · Edited · Like · 1
Gordon McIntosh I was born in Hokitika but lived here for the first four years of my life before moving to Ross.
August 2, 2014 at 8:46pm · Like · 1
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Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan Glen not sure where you got your Maori from but Rua means two in most cases. You have to like all languages look at the context. Not alot of caves in the area at the time I would say or at least until the miners started digging.
No the bodies left in the lake as far as I know because in Maoridom the most mana attaches to your head so to prevent the enemy from benefiting from the mana it was common to take the heads of the fallen so they didn't get taken by the enemy.
I have the story in our runanga notes somewhere but it was definitely two dead so that would fit with Ruatapu, an area of a battle been tapu.
August 2, 2014 at 8:54pm · Like · 3
Glenn Johnston Ken my father was half Maori & a fluent speaker. Yes"rua" can mean two but often doesn't when it is at the start of a longer word. e.g Ruatoria = the pit of Toria, Ruatangata = cave dweller etc. I'd be interested in hearing a full account of the Mahinapua battle. Better go as rugby about to start.
August 2, 2014 at 9:25pm · Edited · Like · 1
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan well considering where Ruatapu is not a lot of caves there for one if any. but battle is pretty much as I outlined. & it is my relations who were in it. also remember that on the coast our dialect(for southern westland) was very very different than accepted Maori. In fact when Von Haast arrived his guide could not understand our people. Bruce bay in normal Maori is known as Mahitahi but by our people it was only ever known as Maitai. We are also one of only four areas with l in words & have one word giegie instead of Kiekie. so don't read too much into names on the coast by normal Maori standards
August 2, 2014 at 10:49pm · Like · 1
Heather Newby Glenn Johnston This is where Ruatapu.. the township, got it`s name from.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruatapu
Ruatapu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In Māori tradition, Ruatapu was the second son of the great chief Uenuku, who belittled him for using the sacred comb of his elder brother, Kahutia-te-rangi. As revenge, Ruatapu enticed the children of the nobility into his canoe, sailed them in the ocean, and then sank it (Craig 1989:237). Kahutia-…
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
August 2, 2014 at 11:05pm · Edited · Like · Remove
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan could do as Tahu( re Ngai Tahu) was Porou & Paikea's brother so legends could come from there. War party where the two died came from Kaiaipoihia pa.
naming though often refers to something that happened locally(so in that vein Glenn is right) or direct line of descent. it could also refer to what the two who died saw themselves as. have to check but sure Te Koeti & others did refer to themselves as being from iwi ruatapu. don't have the books on me right now.
ancestors can appear & disappear through out stories & then same name can refer to different person ie Te Koeti turanga is one person but history talks about his son whom was known by our people as Butler te koeti
August 2, 2014 at 11:10pm · Like
Heather Newby "The town's name stems from Ruatapu, a figure in Māori mythology. "....that`s what it said in the Wikipedia re Ruatapu.Interesting..
August 2, 2014 at 11:14pm · Like
Heather Newby Gordon McIntosh do you remember anything about living there?
August 2, 2014 at 11:15pm · Like
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan yes but Wikipedia is not always right & doesn't figure on why names were used. bit like the encyclpedia been sold around NZ years ago. it said Taranaki & waikato were our top sheep areas & Canterbury was our top dairy area which was totally wrong at that point in time.
August 2, 2014 at 11:23pm · Like · 3
Gordon McIntosh I remember the store on the corner - featured as the store in the Stanley Graham movie. The house we lived in was in a long row of mill houses on the lake side of the road with the mill on the other side with the railway line beyond that. Also remember the little railway station/shed much like many other small stations at the time.most other memories are of people or incidents with not a lot of context around them - i was very young and these are amongst my earliest memories. . I remember moving to Ross.
August 2, 2014 at 11:44pm · Edited · Like · 1
Glenn Johnston Heather Newby. Rugby over & I'm back. Your story of the Ruatapu name origin is unlikely to be correct for the Ruatapu we are discussing. I'll have a look thru my fathers books & papers tomorrow & see what I can find. There is a lot of material to go thru. BTW rua can also mean grave. Gordon I have photos of that store & the old church.
August 2, 2014 at 11:46pm · Like · 4
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Glenn Johnston
Glenn Johnston Ken 'Dusty' Duncan I've come across an account of the Mahinapua conflict recorded sometime between 1859 & 1863 by Canon Stack. It says the material was collected from chiefs throughout the SI. A Ngai Tahu party was "defeated by Ngati Wairangi at Mahinapua, where Tane tiki, Tu te pirirangi, and Tutae maro were slain..." So it was three not two that were killed. "Toru" not "rua." Strengthening my thoughts that the rua in Ruatapu may have nothing to do with the number two!
August 3, 2014 at 8:49am · Edited · Like · 1
Glenn Johnston Ken 'Dusty' Duncan & Heather Newby I've found two references to the meaning of the place name Ruatapu in Westland amongst my late fathers material. Both are literal translations. I quote "1/ rua = cave, pit, and tapu = sacred & 2/ rua = cave,pit and tapu = sacred, forbidden. The cave(pit) was probably used for burials." Williams dictionary gives grave as one meaning for rua.
August 3, 2014 at 8:52am · Edited · Like · 1
Heather Newby I found photos of two men from Ruatapu who were killed during WW2.one was an airman and one was a gunner.imagine going from a tiny place like Ruatapu into a hellhole like war!!
August 3, 2014 at 9:17am · Like · 1
Amber Long I remember growing up with several Nga Tahu kids who wouldn't swim in Lake Mahinapua because it was regarded as tapu. They said they had lost several ancestors in battles there.
August 3, 2014 at 9:20am · Like · 3
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Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan yes Heather the difference is huge. its one reason I love to head back to south westland after working security in Iraq it was like a sanctuary after what you see in a war zone.
August 3, 2014 at 2:29pm · Like · 2
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Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan Glenn the battle I am more aware off it was two people & those are not their names. One issue with maori land court is like many things what it records is not always right. though it could be same people just by different names.
I would think Heather is more on the right line. Issue that I noted when we were looking at what to call Pou etc in our Marae is that names of people & tribes can appear at many places along a time line & trick is trying to work out who is who or what is what.
Other big issue is from whose stories did the names come? Most Ngai Tahu (of which I am counted as one of the iwi) do not accept the Waitaha groupings stories going back 50,000 years approximately to Africa yet whilst in Iraq I came across more & more evidence that fits their stories as fact. Not to mention that most Ngai Tahu actually have a greater line to kati mamoe & all have a connection to Waitaha grouping. Many of those two have being denied recognition by certain parts of Ngai tahu & in fact that is in part behind recent battles within the Iwi. One part are trying to rewrite whakapapa & history.
That is not just a Maori thing as latest school books in US have virtually written out Thomas Jefferson, Probably the main driving force behind the constitution because he spoke against what they have now. India are doing the same right now & China has done it re the Japanese & the Japanese re their part in the war.
In South Westland there was also a midden found that dated over 2000 years old. that has now disappeared or been re dated to fit the current line of thought. this is where I differ from our chairman or most as they accept the academic line. Yet other academic information has shown there are quite often a truth that is more in line with the myths. its just interpreting them.
August 3, 2014 at 2:47pm · Like · 2
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Glenda Wilks
Glenda Wilks I was told as a child it was a burial ground, therefore tapu to go there.
August 3, 2014 at 3:15pm · Like · 1
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Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan our account is no burial but as I have said bodies left in lake & heads removed.
August 3, 2014 at 3:17pm · Like
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Glenn Johnston
Glenn Johnston Ken 'Dusty' Duncan the info I provided re the battle wasn't from Land Court records but chiefs circa 1860 who wanted their oral history preserved as things were changing since the arrival of the pakeha. The last of the Ngai Tahu vs Ngati Wairangi battles was in the early 1800's so info was fairly recent when recorded. I can only find one instance of a battle between these tribes at Mahinapua so we are probably referring to the same battle. Are you now accepting that the "rua" in Ruatapu is now unlikely to refer to the number two? BTW amongst my fathers books & papers there is copious info on the ancestor Ruatapu and over a thousand pages of Ngai Tahu, Ngati Porou and other related tribes whakapapa.
August 3, 2014 at 3:21pm · Like
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Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan No I do not accept that. I will look up our history might have more. Maori Land court recorded it the way that fitted the wants of the powers that be. also you should be very aware that from very early on Maori did not trust the systems so much information was withheld.
As I said information I have is it was only two
August 3, 2014 at 3:24pm · Like
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Nana Pop Detlaff
Nana Pop Detlaff Have we started another war?? There were three quite large heaps of pipi shells (sea ones, as it was tidal) on the east bank of the Totara Lagoon just south of the big island, about a third of the way from Ross to Ruatapu (regardless of it's meaning!!). They were middens from probably pre-pakeha Maori. Unfortunately these were destroyed approx 55yrs ago by a farmer developing his land. The pipi beds were destroyed by Stuart and Chapman Sawmill, Ross, pumping their sawdust into the lagoon. As we both saw these we would love a photo of them. There is very little Maori history recorded in our area - such a pity! We are really enjoying the dialogue- are learning lots.
August 3, 2014 at 4:04pm · Like · 4
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Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan Not a war. tried to find where I put runanga booklet of debate over some of this (5 different opinions in it) but what I do remember is two people killed one Tekoeti's father. his name is none of those above. one of the others named was still alive late 1880's in Poerua Pa from memory well after the battle
August 3, 2014 at 4:12pm · Like · 1
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Phyllis Williams
Phyllis Williams my brother Bryan Eckhoff used to work at the mill before we move to the north Island
August 3, 2014 at 4:29pm · Like · 1
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Gordon McIntosh
Gordon McIntosh Phyllis Williams - Eckhoff, I remember you from infants class at Ross school. Miss Kerr was our teacher.
August 3, 2014 at 5:31pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Carrol Barnes - Baker
Carrol Barnes - Baker oh dear who will win this battle. as kids we swan in lake Mahinapua all the time I never knew anything about all the Maori stuff so cannot help there but nothing ever happened to me but I think if I knew there were bodies anywhere it would have put me off
August 3, 2014 at 5:52pm · Like · 1
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Jenny Leach
Jenny Leach Lived in ruatapu forabout 6 years
August 3, 2014 at 6:03pm · Like
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William Albert Whitehead
William Albert Whitehead All processed in China now.
August 3, 2014 at 6:21pm · Like
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Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan right might of found out the story behind the name. academics will probably disagree but it requires to understand a bit of how Maori history was recorded & read between the lines of what was recorded.
Some of information Glenn has provided is partially right once you know what to interpret & Heather is partly on the right track with her wikipedia entry.
this is problem with maori issues. for example in one case person whom our runanga is named after is at one part said to be grandaughter or within 5 generations of the great Mamoe leader who brought them to NZ but in next its 40 generations.
Now Glenn names three people who died in the battle. at first one name didn't seem right but with some out side the square thinking it is very likely Te Koeti's father. One issue is differing stories of where he was killed. some at Mahinpua(& naming of place fits with it being here), in others his body was taken back to Moana(Lake Brunner) & now official it was at Moana. but I think the naming points to it been here.
One of the other names Glenn quotes is Tutae which I don't think anyone would be named. but then I see in war party defeated by Ngati Wairangi was lead by Taetae who later was to be at Okarito in 1936 & lead the southern Tai Poutini in negotiations of land sales in 1859(they walked for 9 days to get everyone to Arahura looked at the offer then after an hour rejected it turned around & walked back but he was not able to be at sale in 1860 due to illness & he died around this time. Not at the battle. he just lead it.
now recorders obviously got names wrong due to misinterpretation of dialect most likely.
August 3, 2014 at 8:56pm · Like
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Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan Now wikipedia says Ngai Tahu ancestor which can be right but usually Maori place names are of incidents(why Glenn was looking at pits/ caves etc locally) locally or recent relations even.
Now if Tekoeti's father did die at Mahinpua it would mean they may of named it after the Iwi he identified with. Ruaapu. its easy to see how this could of been mistaken for the ancestor Ruatapu. Ruaapu was a recent ancestor based at same place as Tekoeti & his father near Waihora(lake Ellesmere)..
the great thing about early settlers & explorers they recorded their observations as they got them. later generations have reviewed them as incorrect (ie maitai being Mahitahi though they mean the same thing different dialect & Waitangi Taona means same as Waitangi Tahuna) but our local dialect dropped H's.
August 3, 2014 at 9:05pm · Like · 1
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Glenn Johnston
Glenn Johnston Ken 'Dusty' Duncan Regarding the recording by Stack I quoted from I'd like to point out that he was not a colonist with little understanding of the Maori language. Stack was NZ born in a Maori pa the son of a missionary. He lived remote from European contact for a while in the NI and was both fluent in the Maori language and familiar with their customs. From about 1860 he lived with Ngai Tahu Maori at Tuahiwi, not in a European settlement. Stack travelled extensively amonst the SI Ngai Tahu and was an advocate for improving their lot. He understood Ngai Tahu custom, was supported by them in recording their stories and was backed by them in becoming an official interpreter. This is not some some run of the mill colonist who may misinterpret the Maori language.
August 4, 2014 at 7:11am · Like
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Glenn Johnston
Glenn Johnston More. I agree Tutae as a name or part of a name would seem unusual but it is a name that crops up in Whakapapa with both a short and long "u." It has more than one meaning. Agree names can be problematical to pin to events because the same or similar names may be repeated over the generations. Dusty as you likely know a dead persons name may be given to a new born as a form of commemoration so the name of someone killed in battle could crop up a generation or two later. I'll try & track down Paul's book to see if it sheds more light on the skirmish at Mahinapua and the naming of Ruatapu.
August 4, 2014 at 5:20pm · Edited · Like
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Carrol Barnes - Baker
Carrol Barnes - Baker Just a little laughter to this subject when I was about two my mum had a Maori friend called Lynda who looked after me while toilet training I called # 2 Tutae love to know what this really means in Maori
August 4, 2014 at 5:08pm · Like
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Glenn Johnston
Glenn Johnston Carrolyn Baker it can mean what you think it does. Hamuti is the specific term for human excrement though. Tutae is a more general term and also covers non human excrement. e.g. tutaekuri = dog dung
August 7, 2014 at 11:00am · Edited · Like · 1
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Heather Newby
Heather Newby I remember getting fresh water mussels from Lake Mahinapua.. I was intrigued to learn that the lake was a coastal lagoon
August 4, 2014 at 7:04pm · Like · 1
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Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan Glenn , Paul is our chariman though we disagree on things at times.
Tutae is word for excrement especially amongst Ngati Porou & Tuhoe. Living in Tuahiwi doesn't make someone fluent in a dialect in south westland. ...See More
August 4, 2014 at 8:02pm · Like · 1
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Ragnar Light
Ragnar Light It's written on the panels at the lake that an invading ngai tahu war party from the east coast came and fought local Maori who history tells us were the Waitaha tribe. The chiefs crossing the lakes with the severed heads drowned in the lake while attempting to cross back to the east in their waka. Hence why the place is "twice cursed" once for murders of a peaceful tribe, and twice for the drownings. Maori mythology says, the lake itself was created by a Maori chief and his digging stick while touring the south.
August 4, 2014 at 8:15pm · Like · 2
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Ragnar Light
Ragnar Light Interesting to see the link Heather posted about the Person Ruatapu. It seems more likely the Maori named the lake after the drowning of the returning war party. Being that that was what Ruatapu, the person, had done in previous history.
August 4, 2014 at 8:20pm · Like · 1
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Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan well those panels are very wrong in parts. they were fighting Ngati Wairangi not Waitaha. the fighting would of started pretty much after the peace between Ngai Tahu & Kati Mamoe. IN Northern Westland they identify more with Ngai Tahu whilst in South Westland we identify with Kati Mamoe & Waitaha more.
Haast pass was once known as Cannibal gorge because those who moved south defeated Ngati Wairangi there ate them.
Doc have a habit of writing the history part based on truth & part on their own story writing. I remember when Paul our chairman got very upset over how they had changed our story in franz .
August 4, 2014 at 8:23pm · Like · 2
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Dyan Hansen
Dyan Hansen Ken, some of your cousins, me included, also whakapapa to Ngati Wairangi.
August 4, 2014 at 8:33pm · Like · 1
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Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan I think most of us do but someone we both know reckons though they weren't all killed off in the North in the south we did. I find that hard to believe as we would of lost a lot of information had that happened.
how are you anyway cuz?
August 4, 2014 at 8:36pm · Like · 1
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Dyan Hansen
Dyan Hansen Good. Keeping warm.
August 4, 2014 at 8:37pm · Like
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Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan Do you remember those Wananga about our history for the pou etc & naming of the Marae? it showed how confusing it could all be & how people similar or same names could be confused for someone at another point in our history. that is why when looking through the information I believe Ruaapu has been mistaken for Ruatapu who was much much further back in the whakapapa. that s more a ngati Porou name than Ngai Tahu or Kati Mamoe
August 4, 2014 at 8:43pm · Like · 2
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Marg Delore
Marg Delore Just read most of these comments..I feel like I have had a bedtime story. Very informative thanks.
August 4, 2014 at 9:52pm · Like · 3
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Glenn Johnston
Glenn Johnston Ken 'Dusty' Duncan we agree that it was Ngati Wairangi and not Waitaha involved. [DOC must have classed them as part of Waitaha]. The DOC explanation for the naming of Ruatapu is similar to the one given by the Detlaff's. I would like to know the DOC sources. I know both Hemi Te Rakau and Maika Mason who were advisers working for DOC but don't know if they provided that information but could find out..
August 5, 2014 at 7:29am · Like
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Glenn Johnston
Glenn Johnston Ken 'Dusty' Duncan Regarding the dialect differences I'm well aware of them and contend it would not have been a problem for Stack. He was living at Tuahiwi near Kaiapoi amongst whanaunga of some the very same Ngai Tahu who had participated in the battles against Ngati Wairangi. not that long before the information was recorded. It was not Kati Mamoe dialect he needed to understand but the eastern Ngai Tahu of the raiders who came over from Canterbury. He actually spent time with Kati Mamoe in the south and west so was familiar with Kati Mamoe too!.
August 5, 2014 at 7:33am · Like
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Amber Long
Amber Long Marg Delore, I'm Amber Connole/Hutchison and remember you very well from growing up with Ken and Karla. Hope you had a good sleep!
August 5, 2014 at 8:27am · Like
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Glenn Johnston
Glenn Johnston Ken 'Dusty' Duncan I got hold of Paul's book while in Grey today having my vehicle serviced. I also read various Herries Beattie accounts written about 70 years after Stack and also flicked thru the Grey library newspaper files. An extended summary re Mahinapua follows in the next post. Nothing additional useful re the naming of Ruatapu was unearthed so we are left with what has already been discussed and no definitive answer. About the only consensus is that the name probably has something to do with the deaths at Mahinapua.
August 5, 2014 at 2:11pm · Like · 1
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Glenn Johnston
Glenn Johnston Ken 'Dusty' Duncan Now re Mahinapua. Paul the chairman of your runanga agrees that three (yes three) chiefs were drowned (one source says battered to death) at Mahinapua. The names Paul gives are the exact same ones as Stack, the source that I used, had recorded. Once again they were Tane tiki, Tu te pirirangi and Tutae maro. Hika tutae (that tutae name again) became upoko ariki (head chief) once Tane tiki was dead and was the one who took the severed heads of the chiefs to return them home & prevent them falling in to enemy hands. Taetae was involved in assisting the Kaiapoi Ngai Tahu on some raids against Ngati Wairangi and is a totally different person to Tutae maro who died. Paul seems to have happily used Stack as a reference and Beattie records that Stack circa 1860 spoke with those who had been on expeditions to the Coast via Browning and Harpers Pass in their youth.
August 5, 2014 at 2:17pm · Like · 1
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Ragnar Light
Ragnar Light Yep it's a bloody shame we can't know for certain, but the Maori did very well to keep the basics of there stories alive, without pen and paper.
August 5, 2014 at 3:29pm · Like · 4
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Ragnar Light
Ragnar Light Nana Pop Detlaff interesting to here about the midden at the Totara lagoon. My father unearthed a large marsden jade adze head at Paramata between the Mikonui and the Waitaha. Other than that I have never seen or heard of Maori artifacts/sites around Ross. I will have to investigate and see if any of these middens survived, thanks for your pretty accurate description of location.
August 5, 2014 at 3:34pm · Like · 3
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Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan Glenn as I have said a lot of those records are wrong or poorly recorded. Paul does some good research & definitely knows a lot, problem is unlike my father he didn't really know Butler & Maaka or old Bill Bannister(My great grandfather & nephew of the two above) & they passed the direct stories down. also if you read what I said we are not just Mamoe but also whakapapa waitaha & it is well acknowledged our dialect was very very different. In fact the only places that speak the similar are around Riverton, Tuhoe & in the Chathams.
Paul is like a lot of academics though. to get their passes they have to work within defined parameters. best person actually to ask is Terry Ryan thats Dr Terry Ryan but he did what no one in Ngai Tahu would. in fact he is considered the foremost authority on whakapapa in NZ by Iwi but not by all academics.
August 5, 2014 at 8:05pm · Like · 1
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Glenn Johnston
Glenn Johnston Ken 'Dusty' Duncan I'm satisfied now with what I've discovered. In my first two posts I stressed the importance of the local tradition. Stack did record that way back around 1860 from the whanaunga of the principal Ngai Tahu protaganists. Paul Madgwick's book has done a good job of summarising the literature and also added a Kati Mamoe perspective & extra material. I'm not aware that he would have been under any academic constraints when writing that book as he was writing it for your people. Like any history there is always more! There are two copies of Paul's book Aotea in the Greymouth library for those wanting to learn more about the Ngai Tahu - Ngati Wairangi interactions that occurred between around 1700 and 1820.
August 6, 2014 at 7:03am · Like
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Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan well good for you,Glenn but Paul, though good at things when he does them upsets most of runanga at some stage(& some cousins have been reading our debate, not impressed with your arguments) because he will never ever listen to anything outside his thoughts which are academic based in this area whilst others have direct memories of the elders stories.
what he does do though( & I have experienced this several times when member of the executive) is when you point something out slam you down then later on bring it up & claim it as his own.
You need to look a lot wider than all that evidence you cited as most of it is discredited.
Learnt that in Iraq. information gained whilst there supports Waitaha version of history which People like Paul & your self would never accept. When I looked back at notes of Wananga & it was interesting because of the differing stories around the same aspects, to me its quite clear Ruaapu is name it is supposed to be around. it was nearer in time line, they were members of that Iwi or identified as that Iwi.
You are also incorrect about only Ngai Tahu fighting Ngati Wairangi. Kati Mamoe were coming from the south, through the likes of Cannibal gorge & around fiordland.
August 6, 2014 at 8:29pm · Like
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Glenn Johnston
Glenn Johnston Ken 'Dusty' Duncan I have researched very widely & unless new evidence comes forward I stand by with what I said that Paul has done a good job. One of the prime sources is not academic based but the most contemporary we have. (Stack who recorded the Ngai Tahu stories at their request) No where did I say that only Ngai Tahu fought Ngati Wairangi. My last post says principal Ngai Tahu protaganists but that does not mean there were only Ngai Tahu. I obviously knew of Kati Mamoe involvement because of my discussion of Taetae in prior posts. By the time of the Mahinapua incident Ngai Tahu & Kati Mamoe were at peace and their had been a degree of intermarriage and cooperation.. So yes there was Kati Mamoe involvement but it was principally a Ngai Tahu campaign undertaken from Canterbury. Kati Mamoe fought battles against Ngati Wairangi / Kati Wairaki without Ngai Tahu involvement in earlier times. The Waitaha were also prior to this period.
August 7, 2014 at 7:40am · Edited · Like
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Glenn Johnston
Glenn Johnston Ken 'Dusty' Duncan are there two Cannibal Gorges? I've been to Cannibal Gorge several times and the one I've visited is on the way to Ada Pass at the head of the Maruia and it is a battle site. This is nowhere near Fiordland or the Haast Pass.
August 7, 2014 at 7:23am · Like
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Glenn Johnston
Glenn Johnston Ken 'Dusty' Duncan I think I've of worked out the Moana connection you've mentioned a couple of times. Several sources speak of a battle at a later date than the Ngai Tahu defeat at Mahinapua. This time Ngai Tahu triumphed under the command of Moki & Maka. Some speak of this battle being at Otuku whakaoka which is a contraction of Te Kotuku whakaoka. Kotuku Moana is another name for the same place Lake Brunner. Thus two "battles" at two different lakes and just one at Mahinapua. There are four similar versions of this later battle two of which are attributed to local sources; and the others were from east coast Ngai Tahu sources.
August 7, 2014 at 2:51pm · Like
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Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan Well Glenn. last night went further into whakapapa than I have for a while & also notes from Wananga & even more than before I would say it supports my suggestion that Ruatapu comes from Ruaapu.
First it was not Ngai tahu who really took the battle to Ngati Wairangi. I knew of Kati Mamoe raiding from the south but it seems the main group raiding & moving into westland from the NOrth were also Mamoe but with Ngai tahu connections. In fact that seems to be possible reason for the move as Ngai Tahu were not comfortable with a group who whilst intermarried with Ngai Tahu maintained themselves as Kati Mamoe whilst the two groups were still fighting. This group also strongly identified with Ruaapu.
Now the Ruatapu person mentioned was actually called Ruatapunui & was so long back he was probably Jesus's grandfather., his father was Ruapani.
your keep quoting east coast Ngai Tahu but they were not the ones who came over. most Ngai Tahu were later wiped out first through the eat relation feud then Ngati Toa. Most Ngai Tahu today actually have stronger links to Kati Mamoe.
I don't think you get it. I don't rate any of those sources.
August 7, 2014 at 7:49pm · Edited · Like
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Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan never heard of that other cannibal gorge only that Haast pass was & that was were many Ngati Wairangi were eaten after final battle.
August 7, 2014 at 8:05pm · Like
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Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan Carrolyn Baker forget the words Glenn Johnston has used for shit to be blunt.
it can be Tutae or more widely used it Tiko but the word he used means stink or smelly. all my bros from the army are fluent & they are pissing themselves with his words.
books are great but you have to do research outside those.
have just asked one of my cousins re Ruatapu & he has suggested people will know. one is Terry Ryan & the other is my father of all people. so will ask him.
Oh & there was a chief called Tutae, he was kati Mamoe who lived at Kumara.
August 7, 2014 at 9:07pm · Like
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Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan this is reply to what Ruatapu might be named after by cousin,
" it could be anything from people dying or killed off and buried to a something so significant that two places were considered sacred it all depends on the history and the stories of the local iwi"
local Iwi. that's us.
August 7, 2014 at 9:14pm · Like
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Ragnar Light
Ragnar Light You guys should probly start private messaging each other
August 7, 2014 at 9:39pm · Like
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Glenn Johnston
Glenn Johnston Point taken Zody. This Ruatapu - Mahinapua discussion has been interesting for me though and hopefully some others. Last post from me on here then on this topic. I agree with Ken 'Dusty' Duncan's cousin explanations for the possible meanings of Ruatapu. The Ruaapu connection I won't discount but I'd like to hear the view of a Ngai Tahu tohunga whakapapa on this. Regarding the word "hamuti" the only different word I used re excrement; it in deed can mean what I say it does. (I was correct when I said Tutae is a name that crops up in whakapapa & this too was initially doubted) My father, cousins etc were/are also fluent speakers and I worked with older guys in the bush whose first language was Maori so I've absorbed a bit. I've heard hamuti used many times in the context I discussed. So Carolyn Baker I suggest you have more to learn about that word. Yes "tiko" is a common term for excrement or the act of passing the same. Lastly back to Cannibal Gorge, Ken it looks like you have your names/locations mixed up. I've heard about Haast-Fiordland area battles but not the name Cannibal Gorge applied to down there.
August 8, 2014 at 7:13am · Edited · Like · 1
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Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan Glenn I do not have them mixed up & don't tell me my own history. that is what is upsetting some of the cousins too. Cannibal gorge was name used for Haast pass at one point. don't be such an arrogant twat.
one person has come back & said yes Hamuti can be when used in right way but generally it is Tiko or Tutae depending on tribal area. in general use though most Maori only use the two.(army 14 years as well as Ngai Tahu council(TRONT) & until now I have never heard Hamuti used)
the name tutae was not actually the persons name it was the shortened version of their name like Using the D of my nickname to call me instead of Dusty was how it was explained to me & that person should know as was in Ngai Tahu Whakapapa unit under Terry Ryan( & he is the Tohunga Whakapapa period not just of Ngai Tahu but NZ).
Other point I would make Glenn is at least this has made me catch up on my whakapapa notes & there was a bit I haven't really read before.
the people who put it together are actually academics within our runanga who wrote papers on things like Mamoe.
one thing they point out is people like Stack & historians were biased in how they put things together in particular with regards to anything Mamoe.
now they didn't discount our own bias. but they said that when it was other Maori it tended to be bias against Mamoe(as you would expect) & our own was bias in our favour( of course we were the best at everything lol).
the likes of stack etc were bias in terms of racial attitudes of the time(no matter who they lived with. F. E. Manning is a prime example) which is not their fault it was just the way it was, also due to popular theories at the time & Colonial attitudes at the time (this one I liken to Biggles, books I love but you have to put them in the period written by someone brought up in India as part of the British elite - once you do that they are enjoyable books).
Zody I have no intention of PM Glenn as how do you talk to someone who tramples all over your history thinking he knows best when he plainly doesn't & how could he when even in our own history the stories are contradictory.
that is part of the issue within Ngai Tahu. some trying to rewrite whakapapa & stories. when I get an answer re the naming of Ruatapu from the people most likely to now, will post it but for now aim to stay off here unless there are more arrogant mistruths.
August 8, 2014 at 9:00pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Heather Newby
Heather Newby Have fond memories of Mahinapua.. which was a coastal lagoon at one stage on ancient history
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August 2, 2014 at 2:26pm · Like · 4
Gillian Pugh Gosh this page makes me homesick for the Coast!
August 2, 2014 at 3:16pm · Like · 2
Nana Pop Detlaff Photo shows Mirror Creek flowing into Sth end of Mahinapua; also the Nth end of the Totara Lagoon (begins at Ross). The Maori and pre-road pioneers used Mahinapua Cr, the lake, dragged their canoes etc over the rise to the lagoon,and made use of the waterways to get Nth & Sth. A fierce Maori v Maori battle occurred in this area. The name means twice sacred and is a reference apparently to the death of a chief - we believe??
August 2, 2014 at 5:06pm · Like · 4
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan two of our tupuna died there during the battle. One was Te Koeti Turanga's father from memory. Their heads were removed & carried back so the enemy (Ngati Wairangi) could not claim their mana. pretty sure I have that right.
August 2, 2014 at 6:16pm · Like · 2
Nana Pop Detlaff Ken that's what I believed to be the facts but was reluctant to write it in case it was fiction. Can't remember where my info came from but it"s ages ago! Heather
August 2, 2014 at 6:39pm · Like · 1
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan yeah we talked about it in the runanga when planning to build our marae at Bruce Bay. best person to ask is Paul M, editor at Greymouth Star he is our Chairman.
August 2, 2014 at 6:41pm · Like · 2
Glenn Johnston Heather I would question your translation of Ruatapu. Rua usually means pit or cave and tapu sacred or forbidden. My Maori is limited though my late father was fluent & interpreted in Maori Land Courts. A little rubbed off & if I heard that word without knowing the story behind it I would immediately think of burial cave, Would any local Poutini Kai Tahu care to comment on the story behind the naming of Ruatapu. Dusty perhaps the bodies from the battle you described were lodged in a cave there?
August 2, 2014 at 7:19pm · Like · 1
Glenn Johnston Nana Pop Detlaff I agree re the portaging from Lake Mahinapua to the Totara Lagoon but doubt your "twice scared" as a meaning for Ruatapu. I can see how that interpretation could be derived from an English perspective looking at rua and tapu as seperate words but in Maori phrasing it would be Tapurua not Ruatapu to approximate "twice sacred?". I'll stop at attempts to second guess the meaning because no one really knows unless they have the whole story regarding the naming. That is why I invited a local Maori privy to the oral history of the naming of Ruatapu to comment.
August 2, 2014 at 11:33pm · Edited · Like · 1
Gordon McIntosh I was born in Hokitika but lived here for the first four years of my life before moving to Ross.
August 2, 2014 at 8:46pm · Like · 1
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Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan Glen not sure where you got your Maori from but Rua means two in most cases. You have to like all languages look at the context. Not alot of caves in the area at the time I would say or at least until the miners started digging.
No the bodies left in the lake as far as I know because in Maoridom the most mana attaches to your head so to prevent the enemy from benefiting from the mana it was common to take the heads of the fallen so they didn't get taken by the enemy.
I have the story in our runanga notes somewhere but it was definitely two dead so that would fit with Ruatapu, an area of a battle been tapu.
August 2, 2014 at 8:54pm · Like · 3
Glenn Johnston Ken my father was half Maori & a fluent speaker. Yes"rua" can mean two but often doesn't when it is at the start of a longer word. e.g Ruatoria = the pit of Toria, Ruatangata = cave dweller etc. I'd be interested in hearing a full account of the Mahinapua battle. Better go as rugby about to start.
August 2, 2014 at 9:25pm · Edited · Like · 1
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan well considering where Ruatapu is not a lot of caves there for one if any. but battle is pretty much as I outlined. & it is my relations who were in it. also remember that on the coast our dialect(for southern westland) was very very different than accepted Maori. In fact when Von Haast arrived his guide could not understand our people. Bruce bay in normal Maori is known as Mahitahi but by our people it was only ever known as Maitai. We are also one of only four areas with l in words & have one word giegie instead of Kiekie. so don't read too much into names on the coast by normal Maori standards
August 2, 2014 at 10:49pm · Like · 1
Heather Newby Glenn Johnston This is where Ruatapu.. the township, got it`s name from.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruatapu
Ruatapu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In Māori tradition, Ruatapu was the second son of the great chief Uenuku, who belittled him for using the sacred comb of his elder brother, Kahutia-te-rangi. As revenge, Ruatapu enticed the children of the nobility into his canoe, sailed them in the ocean, and then sank it (Craig 1989:237). Kahutia-…
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
August 2, 2014 at 11:05pm · Edited · Like · Remove
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan could do as Tahu( re Ngai Tahu) was Porou & Paikea's brother so legends could come from there. War party where the two died came from Kaiaipoihia pa.
naming though often refers to something that happened locally(so in that vein Glenn is right) or direct line of descent. it could also refer to what the two who died saw themselves as. have to check but sure Te Koeti & others did refer to themselves as being from iwi ruatapu. don't have the books on me right now.
ancestors can appear & disappear through out stories & then same name can refer to different person ie Te Koeti turanga is one person but history talks about his son whom was known by our people as Butler te koeti
August 2, 2014 at 11:10pm · Like
Heather Newby "The town's name stems from Ruatapu, a figure in Māori mythology. "....that`s what it said in the Wikipedia re Ruatapu.Interesting..
August 2, 2014 at 11:14pm · Like
Heather Newby Gordon McIntosh do you remember anything about living there?
August 2, 2014 at 11:15pm · Like
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan yes but Wikipedia is not always right & doesn't figure on why names were used. bit like the encyclpedia been sold around NZ years ago. it said Taranaki & waikato were our top sheep areas & Canterbury was our top dairy area which was totally wrong at that point in time.
August 2, 2014 at 11:23pm · Like · 3
Gordon McIntosh I remember the store on the corner - featured as the store in the Stanley Graham movie. The house we lived in was in a long row of mill houses on the lake side of the road with the mill on the other side with the railway line beyond that. Also remember the little railway station/shed much like many other small stations at the time.most other memories are of people or incidents with not a lot of context around them - i was very young and these are amongst my earliest memories. . I remember moving to Ross.
August 2, 2014 at 11:44pm · Edited · Like · 1
Glenn Johnston Heather Newby. Rugby over & I'm back. Your story of the Ruatapu name origin is unlikely to be correct for the Ruatapu we are discussing. I'll have a look thru my fathers books & papers tomorrow & see what I can find. There is a lot of material to go thru. BTW rua can also mean grave. Gordon I have photos of that store & the old church.
August 2, 2014 at 11:46pm · Like · 4
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Glenn Johnston
Glenn Johnston Ken 'Dusty' Duncan I've come across an account of the Mahinapua conflict recorded sometime between 1859 & 1863 by Canon Stack. It says the material was collected from chiefs throughout the SI. A Ngai Tahu party was "defeated by Ngati Wairangi at Mahinapua, where Tane tiki, Tu te pirirangi, and Tutae maro were slain..." So it was three not two that were killed. "Toru" not "rua." Strengthening my thoughts that the rua in Ruatapu may have nothing to do with the number two!
August 3, 2014 at 8:49am · Edited · Like · 1
Glenn Johnston Ken 'Dusty' Duncan & Heather Newby I've found two references to the meaning of the place name Ruatapu in Westland amongst my late fathers material. Both are literal translations. I quote "1/ rua = cave, pit, and tapu = sacred & 2/ rua = cave,pit and tapu = sacred, forbidden. The cave(pit) was probably used for burials." Williams dictionary gives grave as one meaning for rua.
August 3, 2014 at 8:52am · Edited · Like · 1
Heather Newby I found photos of two men from Ruatapu who were killed during WW2.one was an airman and one was a gunner.imagine going from a tiny place like Ruatapu into a hellhole like war!!
August 3, 2014 at 9:17am · Like · 1
Amber Long I remember growing up with several Nga Tahu kids who wouldn't swim in Lake Mahinapua because it was regarded as tapu. They said they had lost several ancestors in battles there.
August 3, 2014 at 9:20am · Like · 3
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Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan yes Heather the difference is huge. its one reason I love to head back to south westland after working security in Iraq it was like a sanctuary after what you see in a war zone.
August 3, 2014 at 2:29pm · Like · 2
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Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan Glenn the battle I am more aware off it was two people & those are not their names. One issue with maori land court is like many things what it records is not always right. though it could be same people just by different names.
I would think Heather is more on the right line. Issue that I noted when we were looking at what to call Pou etc in our Marae is that names of people & tribes can appear at many places along a time line & trick is trying to work out who is who or what is what.
Other big issue is from whose stories did the names come? Most Ngai Tahu (of which I am counted as one of the iwi) do not accept the Waitaha groupings stories going back 50,000 years approximately to Africa yet whilst in Iraq I came across more & more evidence that fits their stories as fact. Not to mention that most Ngai Tahu actually have a greater line to kati mamoe & all have a connection to Waitaha grouping. Many of those two have being denied recognition by certain parts of Ngai tahu & in fact that is in part behind recent battles within the Iwi. One part are trying to rewrite whakapapa & history.
That is not just a Maori thing as latest school books in US have virtually written out Thomas Jefferson, Probably the main driving force behind the constitution because he spoke against what they have now. India are doing the same right now & China has done it re the Japanese & the Japanese re their part in the war.
In South Westland there was also a midden found that dated over 2000 years old. that has now disappeared or been re dated to fit the current line of thought. this is where I differ from our chairman or most as they accept the academic line. Yet other academic information has shown there are quite often a truth that is more in line with the myths. its just interpreting them.
August 3, 2014 at 2:47pm · Like · 2
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Glenda Wilks
Glenda Wilks I was told as a child it was a burial ground, therefore tapu to go there.
August 3, 2014 at 3:15pm · Like · 1
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Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan our account is no burial but as I have said bodies left in lake & heads removed.
August 3, 2014 at 3:17pm · Like
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Glenn Johnston
Glenn Johnston Ken 'Dusty' Duncan the info I provided re the battle wasn't from Land Court records but chiefs circa 1860 who wanted their oral history preserved as things were changing since the arrival of the pakeha. The last of the Ngai Tahu vs Ngati Wairangi battles was in the early 1800's so info was fairly recent when recorded. I can only find one instance of a battle between these tribes at Mahinapua so we are probably referring to the same battle. Are you now accepting that the "rua" in Ruatapu is now unlikely to refer to the number two? BTW amongst my fathers books & papers there is copious info on the ancestor Ruatapu and over a thousand pages of Ngai Tahu, Ngati Porou and other related tribes whakapapa.
August 3, 2014 at 3:21pm · Like
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Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan No I do not accept that. I will look up our history might have more. Maori Land court recorded it the way that fitted the wants of the powers that be. also you should be very aware that from very early on Maori did not trust the systems so much information was withheld.
As I said information I have is it was only two
August 3, 2014 at 3:24pm · Like
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Nana Pop Detlaff
Nana Pop Detlaff Have we started another war?? There were three quite large heaps of pipi shells (sea ones, as it was tidal) on the east bank of the Totara Lagoon just south of the big island, about a third of the way from Ross to Ruatapu (regardless of it's meaning!!). They were middens from probably pre-pakeha Maori. Unfortunately these were destroyed approx 55yrs ago by a farmer developing his land. The pipi beds were destroyed by Stuart and Chapman Sawmill, Ross, pumping their sawdust into the lagoon. As we both saw these we would love a photo of them. There is very little Maori history recorded in our area - such a pity! We are really enjoying the dialogue- are learning lots.
August 3, 2014 at 4:04pm · Like · 4
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Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan Not a war. tried to find where I put runanga booklet of debate over some of this (5 different opinions in it) but what I do remember is two people killed one Tekoeti's father. his name is none of those above. one of the others named was still alive late 1880's in Poerua Pa from memory well after the battle
August 3, 2014 at 4:12pm · Like · 1
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Phyllis Williams
Phyllis Williams my brother Bryan Eckhoff used to work at the mill before we move to the north Island
August 3, 2014 at 4:29pm · Like · 1
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Gordon McIntosh
Gordon McIntosh Phyllis Williams - Eckhoff, I remember you from infants class at Ross school. Miss Kerr was our teacher.
August 3, 2014 at 5:31pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Carrol Barnes - Baker
Carrol Barnes - Baker oh dear who will win this battle. as kids we swan in lake Mahinapua all the time I never knew anything about all the Maori stuff so cannot help there but nothing ever happened to me but I think if I knew there were bodies anywhere it would have put me off
August 3, 2014 at 5:52pm · Like · 1
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Jenny Leach
Jenny Leach Lived in ruatapu forabout 6 years
August 3, 2014 at 6:03pm · Like
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William Albert Whitehead
William Albert Whitehead All processed in China now.
August 3, 2014 at 6:21pm · Like
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Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan right might of found out the story behind the name. academics will probably disagree but it requires to understand a bit of how Maori history was recorded & read between the lines of what was recorded.
Some of information Glenn has provided is partially right once you know what to interpret & Heather is partly on the right track with her wikipedia entry.
this is problem with maori issues. for example in one case person whom our runanga is named after is at one part said to be grandaughter or within 5 generations of the great Mamoe leader who brought them to NZ but in next its 40 generations.
Now Glenn names three people who died in the battle. at first one name didn't seem right but with some out side the square thinking it is very likely Te Koeti's father. One issue is differing stories of where he was killed. some at Mahinpua(& naming of place fits with it being here), in others his body was taken back to Moana(Lake Brunner) & now official it was at Moana. but I think the naming points to it been here.
One of the other names Glenn quotes is Tutae which I don't think anyone would be named. but then I see in war party defeated by Ngati Wairangi was lead by Taetae who later was to be at Okarito in 1936 & lead the southern Tai Poutini in negotiations of land sales in 1859(they walked for 9 days to get everyone to Arahura looked at the offer then after an hour rejected it turned around & walked back but he was not able to be at sale in 1860 due to illness & he died around this time. Not at the battle. he just lead it.
now recorders obviously got names wrong due to misinterpretation of dialect most likely.
August 3, 2014 at 8:56pm · Like
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Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan Now wikipedia says Ngai Tahu ancestor which can be right but usually Maori place names are of incidents(why Glenn was looking at pits/ caves etc locally) locally or recent relations even.
Now if Tekoeti's father did die at Mahinpua it would mean they may of named it after the Iwi he identified with. Ruaapu. its easy to see how this could of been mistaken for the ancestor Ruatapu. Ruaapu was a recent ancestor based at same place as Tekoeti & his father near Waihora(lake Ellesmere)..
the great thing about early settlers & explorers they recorded their observations as they got them. later generations have reviewed them as incorrect (ie maitai being Mahitahi though they mean the same thing different dialect & Waitangi Taona means same as Waitangi Tahuna) but our local dialect dropped H's.
August 3, 2014 at 9:05pm · Like · 1
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Glenn Johnston
Glenn Johnston Ken 'Dusty' Duncan Regarding the recording by Stack I quoted from I'd like to point out that he was not a colonist with little understanding of the Maori language. Stack was NZ born in a Maori pa the son of a missionary. He lived remote from European contact for a while in the NI and was both fluent in the Maori language and familiar with their customs. From about 1860 he lived with Ngai Tahu Maori at Tuahiwi, not in a European settlement. Stack travelled extensively amonst the SI Ngai Tahu and was an advocate for improving their lot. He understood Ngai Tahu custom, was supported by them in recording their stories and was backed by them in becoming an official interpreter. This is not some some run of the mill colonist who may misinterpret the Maori language.
August 4, 2014 at 7:11am · Like
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Glenn Johnston
Glenn Johnston More. I agree Tutae as a name or part of a name would seem unusual but it is a name that crops up in Whakapapa with both a short and long "u." It has more than one meaning. Agree names can be problematical to pin to events because the same or similar names may be repeated over the generations. Dusty as you likely know a dead persons name may be given to a new born as a form of commemoration so the name of someone killed in battle could crop up a generation or two later. I'll try & track down Paul's book to see if it sheds more light on the skirmish at Mahinapua and the naming of Ruatapu.
August 4, 2014 at 5:20pm · Edited · Like
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Carrol Barnes - Baker
Carrol Barnes - Baker Just a little laughter to this subject when I was about two my mum had a Maori friend called Lynda who looked after me while toilet training I called # 2 Tutae love to know what this really means in Maori
August 4, 2014 at 5:08pm · Like
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Glenn Johnston
Glenn Johnston Carrolyn Baker it can mean what you think it does. Hamuti is the specific term for human excrement though. Tutae is a more general term and also covers non human excrement. e.g. tutaekuri = dog dung
August 7, 2014 at 11:00am · Edited · Like · 1
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Heather Newby
Heather Newby I remember getting fresh water mussels from Lake Mahinapua.. I was intrigued to learn that the lake was a coastal lagoon
August 4, 2014 at 7:04pm · Like · 1
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Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan Glenn , Paul is our chariman though we disagree on things at times.
Tutae is word for excrement especially amongst Ngati Porou & Tuhoe. Living in Tuahiwi doesn't make someone fluent in a dialect in south westland. ...See More
August 4, 2014 at 8:02pm · Like · 1
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Ragnar Light
Ragnar Light It's written on the panels at the lake that an invading ngai tahu war party from the east coast came and fought local Maori who history tells us were the Waitaha tribe. The chiefs crossing the lakes with the severed heads drowned in the lake while attempting to cross back to the east in their waka. Hence why the place is "twice cursed" once for murders of a peaceful tribe, and twice for the drownings. Maori mythology says, the lake itself was created by a Maori chief and his digging stick while touring the south.
August 4, 2014 at 8:15pm · Like · 2
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Ragnar Light
Ragnar Light Interesting to see the link Heather posted about the Person Ruatapu. It seems more likely the Maori named the lake after the drowning of the returning war party. Being that that was what Ruatapu, the person, had done in previous history.
August 4, 2014 at 8:20pm · Like · 1
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Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan well those panels are very wrong in parts. they were fighting Ngati Wairangi not Waitaha. the fighting would of started pretty much after the peace between Ngai Tahu & Kati Mamoe. IN Northern Westland they identify more with Ngai Tahu whilst in South Westland we identify with Kati Mamoe & Waitaha more.
Haast pass was once known as Cannibal gorge because those who moved south defeated Ngati Wairangi there ate them.
Doc have a habit of writing the history part based on truth & part on their own story writing. I remember when Paul our chairman got very upset over how they had changed our story in franz .
August 4, 2014 at 8:23pm · Like · 2
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Dyan Hansen
Dyan Hansen Ken, some of your cousins, me included, also whakapapa to Ngati Wairangi.
August 4, 2014 at 8:33pm · Like · 1
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Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan I think most of us do but someone we both know reckons though they weren't all killed off in the North in the south we did. I find that hard to believe as we would of lost a lot of information had that happened.
how are you anyway cuz?
August 4, 2014 at 8:36pm · Like · 1
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Dyan Hansen
Dyan Hansen Good. Keeping warm.
August 4, 2014 at 8:37pm · Like
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Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan Do you remember those Wananga about our history for the pou etc & naming of the Marae? it showed how confusing it could all be & how people similar or same names could be confused for someone at another point in our history. that is why when looking through the information I believe Ruaapu has been mistaken for Ruatapu who was much much further back in the whakapapa. that s more a ngati Porou name than Ngai Tahu or Kati Mamoe
August 4, 2014 at 8:43pm · Like · 2
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Marg Delore
Marg Delore Just read most of these comments..I feel like I have had a bedtime story. Very informative thanks.
August 4, 2014 at 9:52pm · Like · 3
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Glenn Johnston
Glenn Johnston Ken 'Dusty' Duncan we agree that it was Ngati Wairangi and not Waitaha involved. [DOC must have classed them as part of Waitaha]. The DOC explanation for the naming of Ruatapu is similar to the one given by the Detlaff's. I would like to know the DOC sources. I know both Hemi Te Rakau and Maika Mason who were advisers working for DOC but don't know if they provided that information but could find out..
August 5, 2014 at 7:29am · Like
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Glenn Johnston
Glenn Johnston Ken 'Dusty' Duncan Regarding the dialect differences I'm well aware of them and contend it would not have been a problem for Stack. He was living at Tuahiwi near Kaiapoi amongst whanaunga of some the very same Ngai Tahu who had participated in the battles against Ngati Wairangi. not that long before the information was recorded. It was not Kati Mamoe dialect he needed to understand but the eastern Ngai Tahu of the raiders who came over from Canterbury. He actually spent time with Kati Mamoe in the south and west so was familiar with Kati Mamoe too!.
August 5, 2014 at 7:33am · Like
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Amber Long
Amber Long Marg Delore, I'm Amber Connole/Hutchison and remember you very well from growing up with Ken and Karla. Hope you had a good sleep!
August 5, 2014 at 8:27am · Like
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Glenn Johnston
Glenn Johnston Ken 'Dusty' Duncan I got hold of Paul's book while in Grey today having my vehicle serviced. I also read various Herries Beattie accounts written about 70 years after Stack and also flicked thru the Grey library newspaper files. An extended summary re Mahinapua follows in the next post. Nothing additional useful re the naming of Ruatapu was unearthed so we are left with what has already been discussed and no definitive answer. About the only consensus is that the name probably has something to do with the deaths at Mahinapua.
August 5, 2014 at 2:11pm · Like · 1
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Glenn Johnston
Glenn Johnston Ken 'Dusty' Duncan Now re Mahinapua. Paul the chairman of your runanga agrees that three (yes three) chiefs were drowned (one source says battered to death) at Mahinapua. The names Paul gives are the exact same ones as Stack, the source that I used, had recorded. Once again they were Tane tiki, Tu te pirirangi and Tutae maro. Hika tutae (that tutae name again) became upoko ariki (head chief) once Tane tiki was dead and was the one who took the severed heads of the chiefs to return them home & prevent them falling in to enemy hands. Taetae was involved in assisting the Kaiapoi Ngai Tahu on some raids against Ngati Wairangi and is a totally different person to Tutae maro who died. Paul seems to have happily used Stack as a reference and Beattie records that Stack circa 1860 spoke with those who had been on expeditions to the Coast via Browning and Harpers Pass in their youth.
August 5, 2014 at 2:17pm · Like · 1
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Ragnar Light
Ragnar Light Yep it's a bloody shame we can't know for certain, but the Maori did very well to keep the basics of there stories alive, without pen and paper.
August 5, 2014 at 3:29pm · Like · 4
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Ragnar Light
Ragnar Light Nana Pop Detlaff interesting to here about the midden at the Totara lagoon. My father unearthed a large marsden jade adze head at Paramata between the Mikonui and the Waitaha. Other than that I have never seen or heard of Maori artifacts/sites around Ross. I will have to investigate and see if any of these middens survived, thanks for your pretty accurate description of location.
August 5, 2014 at 3:34pm · Like · 3
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Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan Glenn as I have said a lot of those records are wrong or poorly recorded. Paul does some good research & definitely knows a lot, problem is unlike my father he didn't really know Butler & Maaka or old Bill Bannister(My great grandfather & nephew of the two above) & they passed the direct stories down. also if you read what I said we are not just Mamoe but also whakapapa waitaha & it is well acknowledged our dialect was very very different. In fact the only places that speak the similar are around Riverton, Tuhoe & in the Chathams.
Paul is like a lot of academics though. to get their passes they have to work within defined parameters. best person actually to ask is Terry Ryan thats Dr Terry Ryan but he did what no one in Ngai Tahu would. in fact he is considered the foremost authority on whakapapa in NZ by Iwi but not by all academics.
August 5, 2014 at 8:05pm · Like · 1
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Glenn Johnston
Glenn Johnston Ken 'Dusty' Duncan I'm satisfied now with what I've discovered. In my first two posts I stressed the importance of the local tradition. Stack did record that way back around 1860 from the whanaunga of the principal Ngai Tahu protaganists. Paul Madgwick's book has done a good job of summarising the literature and also added a Kati Mamoe perspective & extra material. I'm not aware that he would have been under any academic constraints when writing that book as he was writing it for your people. Like any history there is always more! There are two copies of Paul's book Aotea in the Greymouth library for those wanting to learn more about the Ngai Tahu - Ngati Wairangi interactions that occurred between around 1700 and 1820.
August 6, 2014 at 7:03am · Like
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Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan well good for you,Glenn but Paul, though good at things when he does them upsets most of runanga at some stage(& some cousins have been reading our debate, not impressed with your arguments) because he will never ever listen to anything outside his thoughts which are academic based in this area whilst others have direct memories of the elders stories.
what he does do though( & I have experienced this several times when member of the executive) is when you point something out slam you down then later on bring it up & claim it as his own.
You need to look a lot wider than all that evidence you cited as most of it is discredited.
Learnt that in Iraq. information gained whilst there supports Waitaha version of history which People like Paul & your self would never accept. When I looked back at notes of Wananga & it was interesting because of the differing stories around the same aspects, to me its quite clear Ruaapu is name it is supposed to be around. it was nearer in time line, they were members of that Iwi or identified as that Iwi.
You are also incorrect about only Ngai Tahu fighting Ngati Wairangi. Kati Mamoe were coming from the south, through the likes of Cannibal gorge & around fiordland.
August 6, 2014 at 8:29pm · Like
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Glenn Johnston
Glenn Johnston Ken 'Dusty' Duncan I have researched very widely & unless new evidence comes forward I stand by with what I said that Paul has done a good job. One of the prime sources is not academic based but the most contemporary we have. (Stack who recorded the Ngai Tahu stories at their request) No where did I say that only Ngai Tahu fought Ngati Wairangi. My last post says principal Ngai Tahu protaganists but that does not mean there were only Ngai Tahu. I obviously knew of Kati Mamoe involvement because of my discussion of Taetae in prior posts. By the time of the Mahinapua incident Ngai Tahu & Kati Mamoe were at peace and their had been a degree of intermarriage and cooperation.. So yes there was Kati Mamoe involvement but it was principally a Ngai Tahu campaign undertaken from Canterbury. Kati Mamoe fought battles against Ngati Wairangi / Kati Wairaki without Ngai Tahu involvement in earlier times. The Waitaha were also prior to this period.
August 7, 2014 at 7:40am · Edited · Like
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Glenn Johnston
Glenn Johnston Ken 'Dusty' Duncan are there two Cannibal Gorges? I've been to Cannibal Gorge several times and the one I've visited is on the way to Ada Pass at the head of the Maruia and it is a battle site. This is nowhere near Fiordland or the Haast Pass.
August 7, 2014 at 7:23am · Like
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Glenn Johnston
Glenn Johnston Ken 'Dusty' Duncan I think I've of worked out the Moana connection you've mentioned a couple of times. Several sources speak of a battle at a later date than the Ngai Tahu defeat at Mahinapua. This time Ngai Tahu triumphed under the command of Moki & Maka. Some speak of this battle being at Otuku whakaoka which is a contraction of Te Kotuku whakaoka. Kotuku Moana is another name for the same place Lake Brunner. Thus two "battles" at two different lakes and just one at Mahinapua. There are four similar versions of this later battle two of which are attributed to local sources; and the others were from east coast Ngai Tahu sources.
August 7, 2014 at 2:51pm · Like
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Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan Well Glenn. last night went further into whakapapa than I have for a while & also notes from Wananga & even more than before I would say it supports my suggestion that Ruatapu comes from Ruaapu.
First it was not Ngai tahu who really took the battle to Ngati Wairangi. I knew of Kati Mamoe raiding from the south but it seems the main group raiding & moving into westland from the NOrth were also Mamoe but with Ngai tahu connections. In fact that seems to be possible reason for the move as Ngai Tahu were not comfortable with a group who whilst intermarried with Ngai Tahu maintained themselves as Kati Mamoe whilst the two groups were still fighting. This group also strongly identified with Ruaapu.
Now the Ruatapu person mentioned was actually called Ruatapunui & was so long back he was probably Jesus's grandfather., his father was Ruapani.
your keep quoting east coast Ngai Tahu but they were not the ones who came over. most Ngai Tahu were later wiped out first through the eat relation feud then Ngati Toa. Most Ngai Tahu today actually have stronger links to Kati Mamoe.
I don't think you get it. I don't rate any of those sources.
August 7, 2014 at 7:49pm · Edited · Like
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Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan never heard of that other cannibal gorge only that Haast pass was & that was were many Ngati Wairangi were eaten after final battle.
August 7, 2014 at 8:05pm · Like
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Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan Carrolyn Baker forget the words Glenn Johnston has used for shit to be blunt.
it can be Tutae or more widely used it Tiko but the word he used means stink or smelly. all my bros from the army are fluent & they are pissing themselves with his words.
books are great but you have to do research outside those.
have just asked one of my cousins re Ruatapu & he has suggested people will know. one is Terry Ryan & the other is my father of all people. so will ask him.
Oh & there was a chief called Tutae, he was kati Mamoe who lived at Kumara.
August 7, 2014 at 9:07pm · Like
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Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan this is reply to what Ruatapu might be named after by cousin,
" it could be anything from people dying or killed off and buried to a something so significant that two places were considered sacred it all depends on the history and the stories of the local iwi"
local Iwi. that's us.
August 7, 2014 at 9:14pm · Like
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Ragnar Light
Ragnar Light You guys should probly start private messaging each other
August 7, 2014 at 9:39pm · Like
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Glenn Johnston
Glenn Johnston Point taken Zody. This Ruatapu - Mahinapua discussion has been interesting for me though and hopefully some others. Last post from me on here then on this topic. I agree with Ken 'Dusty' Duncan's cousin explanations for the possible meanings of Ruatapu. The Ruaapu connection I won't discount but I'd like to hear the view of a Ngai Tahu tohunga whakapapa on this. Regarding the word "hamuti" the only different word I used re excrement; it in deed can mean what I say it does. (I was correct when I said Tutae is a name that crops up in whakapapa & this too was initially doubted) My father, cousins etc were/are also fluent speakers and I worked with older guys in the bush whose first language was Maori so I've absorbed a bit. I've heard hamuti used many times in the context I discussed. So Carolyn Baker I suggest you have more to learn about that word. Yes "tiko" is a common term for excrement or the act of passing the same. Lastly back to Cannibal Gorge, Ken it looks like you have your names/locations mixed up. I've heard about Haast-Fiordland area battles but not the name Cannibal Gorge applied to down there.
August 8, 2014 at 7:13am · Edited · Like · 1
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Ken 'Dusty' Duncan
Ken 'Dusty' Duncan Glenn I do not have them mixed up & don't tell me my own history. that is what is upsetting some of the cousins too. Cannibal gorge was name used for Haast pass at one point. don't be such an arrogant twat.
one person has come back & said yes Hamuti can be when used in right way but generally it is Tiko or Tutae depending on tribal area. in general use though most Maori only use the two.(army 14 years as well as Ngai Tahu council(TRONT) & until now I have never heard Hamuti used)
the name tutae was not actually the persons name it was the shortened version of their name like Using the D of my nickname to call me instead of Dusty was how it was explained to me & that person should know as was in Ngai Tahu Whakapapa unit under Terry Ryan( & he is the Tohunga Whakapapa period not just of Ngai Tahu but NZ).
Other point I would make Glenn is at least this has made me catch up on my whakapapa notes & there was a bit I haven't really read before.
the people who put it together are actually academics within our runanga who wrote papers on things like Mamoe.
one thing they point out is people like Stack & historians were biased in how they put things together in particular with regards to anything Mamoe.
now they didn't discount our own bias. but they said that when it was other Maori it tended to be bias against Mamoe(as you would expect) & our own was bias in our favour( of course we were the best at everything lol).
the likes of stack etc were bias in terms of racial attitudes of the time(no matter who they lived with. F. E. Manning is a prime example) which is not their fault it was just the way it was, also due to popular theories at the time & Colonial attitudes at the time (this one I liken to Biggles, books I love but you have to put them in the period written by someone brought up in India as part of the British elite - once you do that they are enjoyable books).
Zody I have no intention of PM Glenn as how do you talk to someone who tramples all over your history thinking he knows best when he plainly doesn't & how could he when even in our own history the stories are contradictory.
that is part of the issue within Ngai Tahu. some trying to rewrite whakapapa & stories. when I get an answer re the naming of Ruatapu from the people most likely to now, will post it but for now aim to stay off here unless there are more arrogant mistruths.
August 8, 2014 at 9:00pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Heather Newby
Heather Newby Have fond memories of Mahinapua.. which was a coastal lagoon at one stage on ancient history
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West Coast New Zealand History (24th Sep 2017). RUATAPU, a small town south of Hokitika.. In Website West Coast New Zealand History. Retrieved 21st Mar 2026 14:45, from https://westcoast.recollect.co.nz/nodes/view/21837